Dec 30, 2022Liked by Thistle Scottish Rugby Podcast
Pretty reasonable summation of the state of youth rugby in these two Celtic nations -
The promotion of schools rugby period is lamentable in Scotland in contrast to Ireland - a while back I decided to check the SRU website for schools coverage - paper thin, not updated and frankly abject and pathetic - zero write ups no video and barely any results at all - total utter pants if you are an aspiring player
contrast a cursory click on the IRU website leads you to tables results Pre match chatter and video highlights with in depth coverage - all you imagine one would need to feel a professional rugby career offers a decent pathway
The SRU has totally failed in this area - worrying whether private or state school has greater legitimacy and or deserving of being promoted is just a side show to the real deal that the SRU and I assume the schools
System overall still don’t really have a coherent plan around youth development - I don’t think it’s improved one single inch since the professional arena started which is the saddest most telling indictment of the SRU - to be brutally honest the lack of focus on development at Scottish schools is shameful
Disclaimer: I went to Merchiston so all my knowledge is based on that 1 school but I’m an Irishman and a keen follower of both Irish and Scottish rugby so hopefully my comment will be considered in that light.
I would posit that the title of this post should be “Why aren’t the Scottish clubs making more of the talent that is provided by the Scottish schools?”
To take Merchiston as an example, in the last decade they have produced the following players for the Scottish, English and NFL systems (this is based on players who have played in professional matches):
Props: Dan Gamble, Tizquiano Pasquali
Hookers: Fraser Brown, Dave Cherry
Back row: Zach Mercer, Magnus Bradbury & Rudi Brown
Scrum Halves: Sam Hidalgo-Clyne, Scott Steele, Jamie Dobie, Dan Nutton
Centres: Jamie Johnston, Stafford McDowall, Matt Currie
Back 3: Rufus McLean, Patrick Kelly
Other: Jamie Gillan (NFL Punter)
These players have been produced from 1 school over a span of about 10 years. The fact that only 2 of them (you omitted Fraser Brown and Zach Mercer, despite laughably including Marcus Di Rollo in your article) could have been/might be/still could be world class players is to place the blame firmly at the door of the clubs, not the schools.
Scotland only has two professional teams which means the strength in depth is weak and the lack of development by the 2 clubs (look at the importation of 2nd rate English, Saffa and Ozzie players) is frankly shocking. The fact that Gregor is looking to bring over the 4th/5th choice irish scrum half and the 7th/8th Irish fly half shows how bad the development of players in Scotland has been.
It’s not the schools that need to be blamed; it’s the clubs and the SRU.
Great article and some excellent stats. It is a revealing comparison but I’d suggest it’s not “just” the private schools fault but the relative success of Irish rugby during the professional era versus the abject failure of Scotland.
The big difference between Scotland and Ireland is, frankly, football. Football is still the dominant sport for “professional athletes” in Scotland versus rugby the dominant option in Ireland. If you consider Edinburgh versus Dublin, Dublin is the largest city in Europe without a professional football team and hence any aspiring (professional) sportsmen *need* to play rugby. In contrast, Edinburgh still has Hibs and Hearts, both of which, while not competitive in Europe, would likely offer better wages to young academy players than Edinburgh rugby.
Obviously there are two “different markets” for players in Edinburgh for rugby and football but I’d guess that a lot of the Irish schools players joined Blackrock, Belvedere etc on scholarships having picked up rugby at a local club. If you combine rugby’s professional sport monopoly in Ireland with four competitive provinces that raise the standard and depth of professional players then I think the story is more the Irish private school “success” rather than specifically Scottish school failure.
As the comments above mention, there’s definitely a strong case that the schools and clubs have failed the talent available to them but Ireland has benefited from historic circumstances (no “soccer” + GAA).
Interesting and thoughtful analysis of the Irish talent environment. Would also ponder on the crossover of skill sets with GAA sports . Furlong has the footwork that wouldn’t be out of place in Riverdance. Australia has the similar concentration of largely independent traditionally Jesuit schools. Dempsey , Tupilotu , Toolis , Johnson in such an alumni.
Intense competition across these schools is epitomised by the Irish Schools finals whic attract 1000s even at the semi finals stage and are broadcast live on TV. Likewise in the North the annual fixture of Methodist College and Campbell College . Increased levels of affluence in Ireland May in the past 10 years May have contributed to a broader demographic attending or being supported at these schools. The tax incentives for sports people in the Republic may well explain another sphere of influence on the system?
PS . Would add Darge to World class potential who did not attend private school.
Pretty reasonable summation of the state of youth rugby in these two Celtic nations -
The promotion of schools rugby period is lamentable in Scotland in contrast to Ireland - a while back I decided to check the SRU website for schools coverage - paper thin, not updated and frankly abject and pathetic - zero write ups no video and barely any results at all - total utter pants if you are an aspiring player
contrast a cursory click on the IRU website leads you to tables results Pre match chatter and video highlights with in depth coverage - all you imagine one would need to feel a professional rugby career offers a decent pathway
The SRU has totally failed in this area - worrying whether private or state school has greater legitimacy and or deserving of being promoted is just a side show to the real deal that the SRU and I assume the schools
System overall still don’t really have a coherent plan around youth development - I don’t think it’s improved one single inch since the professional arena started which is the saddest most telling indictment of the SRU - to be brutally honest the lack of focus on development at Scottish schools is shameful
Disclaimer: I went to Merchiston so all my knowledge is based on that 1 school but I’m an Irishman and a keen follower of both Irish and Scottish rugby so hopefully my comment will be considered in that light.
I would posit that the title of this post should be “Why aren’t the Scottish clubs making more of the talent that is provided by the Scottish schools?”
To take Merchiston as an example, in the last decade they have produced the following players for the Scottish, English and NFL systems (this is based on players who have played in professional matches):
Props: Dan Gamble, Tizquiano Pasquali
Hookers: Fraser Brown, Dave Cherry
Back row: Zach Mercer, Magnus Bradbury & Rudi Brown
Scrum Halves: Sam Hidalgo-Clyne, Scott Steele, Jamie Dobie, Dan Nutton
Centres: Jamie Johnston, Stafford McDowall, Matt Currie
Back 3: Rufus McLean, Patrick Kelly
Other: Jamie Gillan (NFL Punter)
These players have been produced from 1 school over a span of about 10 years. The fact that only 2 of them (you omitted Fraser Brown and Zach Mercer, despite laughably including Marcus Di Rollo in your article) could have been/might be/still could be world class players is to place the blame firmly at the door of the clubs, not the schools.
Scotland only has two professional teams which means the strength in depth is weak and the lack of development by the 2 clubs (look at the importation of 2nd rate English, Saffa and Ozzie players) is frankly shocking. The fact that Gregor is looking to bring over the 4th/5th choice irish scrum half and the 7th/8th Irish fly half shows how bad the development of players in Scotland has been.
It’s not the schools that need to be blamed; it’s the clubs and the SRU.
Great article and some excellent stats. It is a revealing comparison but I’d suggest it’s not “just” the private schools fault but the relative success of Irish rugby during the professional era versus the abject failure of Scotland.
The big difference between Scotland and Ireland is, frankly, football. Football is still the dominant sport for “professional athletes” in Scotland versus rugby the dominant option in Ireland. If you consider Edinburgh versus Dublin, Dublin is the largest city in Europe without a professional football team and hence any aspiring (professional) sportsmen *need* to play rugby. In contrast, Edinburgh still has Hibs and Hearts, both of which, while not competitive in Europe, would likely offer better wages to young academy players than Edinburgh rugby.
Obviously there are two “different markets” for players in Edinburgh for rugby and football but I’d guess that a lot of the Irish schools players joined Blackrock, Belvedere etc on scholarships having picked up rugby at a local club. If you combine rugby’s professional sport monopoly in Ireland with four competitive provinces that raise the standard and depth of professional players then I think the story is more the Irish private school “success” rather than specifically Scottish school failure.
As the comments above mention, there’s definitely a strong case that the schools and clubs have failed the talent available to them but Ireland has benefited from historic circumstances (no “soccer” + GAA).
Interesting and thoughtful analysis of the Irish talent environment. Would also ponder on the crossover of skill sets with GAA sports . Furlong has the footwork that wouldn’t be out of place in Riverdance. Australia has the similar concentration of largely independent traditionally Jesuit schools. Dempsey , Tupilotu , Toolis , Johnson in such an alumni.
Intense competition across these schools is epitomised by the Irish Schools finals whic attract 1000s even at the semi finals stage and are broadcast live on TV. Likewise in the North the annual fixture of Methodist College and Campbell College . Increased levels of affluence in Ireland May in the past 10 years May have contributed to a broader demographic attending or being supported at these schools. The tax incentives for sports people in the Republic may well explain another sphere of influence on the system?
PS . Would add Darge to World class potential who did not attend private school.